Project MORE: Narrative of the Month

July 2003

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LV: Lee Vang (name of interviewer)

KL: Kia Lee (name of interviewee)

START OF CD, TRACK 1

LV: This is interview LV2B with Kia Lee of Morganton, North Carolina. [Pause] So maybe today we can talk about coming here before going to Thailand.

KL: OK you want to talk about, uh, I think it’s 19-, 1975, 1976.

LV: Yeah.

KL: About 27 years ago.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Well, um. First of all here’s the beginning with we came Laos to Thailand. It’s very difficult. Someone can’t not pass and someone pass depend a person’s lucky.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Yeah. What, we came and the first we can go to the, the war is they fight and then they settle down that no more fight. And people moved like a in. One go up and one go down and one go back and forth but years ago almost the end ‘75 and people keep moving across the city and the river to Thailand. Most, but the most they don’t want to come to Thailand because, um, the reason is why they keep running, walking away from the Vietnamese people, or the enemy because of the young teenager have no legal to live. Only the old people have the right to live. And the younger people about 15 years old or 13 years old to 21. They did not marry or they marry they have to catch the younger to take back to already what they call the city, um, back to what they call Song Cau that it way back to the, um, Vietnam peo-, Vietnamese people where they came from. They hiding those kids and they don’t let those kids to see the parent forever. Or some if they be-, beat each other or they say, “I don’t want to go,” then they kill it, kill that kids and that’s why people keep moving out and moving out in 1975 about May and they keep running crowd to city to city to Thailand. Most the kids walk away already and leave the parent in Laos. When they coming back to pick up the parent and they go back to Thailand. And, but years ago, so I have my daughter Blia and my mom. She’s only a single mother but she have, uh, three, one girl, my sister, and two brother and then they decide to walk away too because they want to try to catch my sister to go too.

LV: Who? The Vietnamese?

KL: Um hmm. They try to catch my sister too and they already got two lady. Uh, their last name is, one is, uh, I forgot her name is May-, Mailo and one they call ( ). They catch back to the Song Ca- to the city what they ca- Song Cau back to the enemy’s city. And they never, never see the parent. When they catch they not let you know that, that, “I want to catch you.” They just they just pretend they’re OK. “We going get cool and be cool.” and they grab it. Grab it and they say, “We don’t, we want to meet you or talk to you.” When they liar, they catch you. They just put in airplane. And the helicopter take you all the way and you never see your ma and dad anymore. If you don’t, if you don’t beat them, then they might send you a letter back to your parent. If you beat them they kill you. Never life. Never survive. Most never survive. So that’s why my sister run away and my mom my two brother run away to Thailand. Only me and my daughter left in Laos.

LV: So wh-, why do they want to catch children?

KL: Uh, because they don’t want them to, uh, come into Thailand because they need more people to fight-

LV: Oh.

KL: -to training and carrying food because the Vietnamese to cross city to city is not like, uh, World War II and General Vang Pao or the American general people army. In got the plan and carrying it through rise and drop down on the ground. They don’t do that. They have to get, collect people, about 20 to 30 per 100 people, for each night and carry rice and back every night, not in daytime. And they carrying rice and food at nighttime. Every night, mountain to mountain, city to city. For, for the, uh, army to eat, soldier eat and carrying weapon and bomb, gun all those every night. That’s why they have no freedom to live. And that’s why they try to run away and they need more people and that’s why they catch the younger people to go training and carrying food and some girl they just put on the, um, with the, with the soldier to mean that they going to have sex.

LV: Yeah.

KL: The whole 20 to 30 men-

LV: Uh huh.

KL: -have to be, need about three or four girl in there. Because the general cousin order and that’s why they catch the younger lady and the, to the man, to the, to the soldier and they carrying they catch the young man to be a soldier-

LV: Yeah.

KL: -and carrying food and carrying gun weapon. That’s why people scared and that’s why people run away. Not to live. So they all run away. So my mom, my sister they pass, um, what do you call? We pass a long game, requires long game to Nasu that’s a city, the second city. When they left me, and they leave me in there, so about three months later, four months later, that when they left, left me is ’70-, ’75, 1975, November. And they leave me in there I live in there until, I think, it’s February and then I walk most back to, uh, what they call La-tich-o-are and I stayed, I crossed that city and passed that city till rain came, then I stayed about two months and rain came. And we go down to the, what do you call? Um city’s Pa-sa. The city is a Pa-sa city. And go down the, uh, the, uh, Song Ca River and Mekong River cross each other and what do you call? Others, other river is different name I forgot the name is, um, uh, what the name. Three river cross each other.

LV: Uh huh.

KL: And we going to stay in the middle, pretend we going to stay in there and we going to make, have farmer and land a lot land we going to stay in there and pretend we stay about three months in there. Two months we stay, two months in there, springtime in there. And we bought a boat, boat in there.

LV: But you said your mom left you?

KL: Yeah, they left me.

LV: Why did they leave you?

KL: Because our people are very important and who marry then you have to belong to the family that you marry. So that’s why they left me in there they don’t care about me.

LV: So they left you with like Dad’s relatives?

KL: Um-hmm.

LV: Wow.

KL: So I live there, stay in there and I use my own money to cross the line and walk away from his family till rain came, find a way out in the Laos country so when I stay in there about two months and I cross the river. Night come to Thailand at nighttime. So that’s very scary, scary, scary, scary, scary. We have a 19 people they a ( ) he bought our boat in there. That’s a really small boat not that many, not that big.

LV: So he bought like-

KL: A boat.

LV: Where did he buy the boat from?

KL: From Laos people.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: He pretend that he going to live in there, stay in there, be a friend.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So he got the boat and he, he just walk, get the boat ride to river-to-river, river-to-river and he wanted to find a way out. Each way is easy, each way is deep, not deep.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: So he looked at all the ways for two months. He already spent one month there he came back to get us. And maintain to, to Pasa and we stay about two months in there too. In total he live in there for three months and we cross the Mekong River and he drop about three or four boat people to Thailand, City and he came back to get his wife and me and my daughter and his son and other family and we are total, plus him, we have 10 people.

LV: \\In one boat?\\

KL: \\In the small boat.\\

LV: Yeah.

KL: And the water is almost, get through the boat.

LV: Oh.

KL: One finger inch.

LV: Uh huh.

KL: The water’s going to go, “SHWOOP!-”

LV: Yeah.

KL: -to the boat. If the water gets into the boat we all total die.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Never left.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So I pray-. It make me so sorry, I pray all time until we pass the city, the river.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: I pray, “God please help me, please don’t let the water go inside the boat.”

LV: Yeah.

KL: And I, my hands hold those boat side. He say, “Don’t do that, don’t do that.”

LV: Um.

KL: We have nine people plus the, the person driving the boat. So when we get there they all get out and I not get out because [technical noises] full about 10 feets water.

LV: Uh huh.

KL: And I jump I say, “Help!” They say, “Why?” I say, “I’m going to die!” They came back and get me and my daughter. So when we land and that, and we just drop the boat in there, we hiding because we scared and people timing too because they cheating. They cheating woman and they cheating money.

LV: Oh.

KL: So we hiding until in the morning. And we get out and we went into the city, we need help. And they just they need help and they help us, but, um, they help us, but they took all the money. Nothing left. Only they left the clothes for us.

LV: Hmm.

KL: And the money, there’s nothing left. They took all the money. It doesn’t matter money or silver or whatever, gold or anything or anything they took it.

LV: So that’s the Thai people?

KL: Thai people. Thailand’s people.

LV: So did they steal it?

KL: Steal it!

LV: Or they just stole it from you.

KL: If they got people. They got us, we make, we went to the city.

LV: Yeah.

KL: To the border and the border call in, and they came in because they are security guard. And they came in and they say, they pretend to, “OK we take you to the city,” what you call refugee people.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Into Nong Khai. They pretend not to border and the border say, “OK, take them all the way to the Nong Khai city. And drop them to the city refugee people don’t do anything to them.” They say, “OK.” But when they pass the city the border city then they just stop the car. And as they, they put the gun for each person one by one then, “Give the money to us. You don’t give the money to us we going to kill you.” And let’s just say, “OK, OK, OK, OK give the money to you.”

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Anything they have too. “Why your money in your pocket?

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: “Take your shoe off.” Everything. And shaking your bag.

LV: Uh-hmm.

KL: Everything they found there.

LV: Uh-hmm.

KL: They took it. Except only me and my friend.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: They didn’t talk about us.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Because we didn’t have no money. So we just only left. But most they got 20 to 30, whole bunch silver. They took all of it.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Nothing left. So it’s very difficult for us to cross the city to the river. Made me scared for 10 year, about. I dream. I dream about cross that river, maybe what do you call? Um, I lost the power.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: In my experience.

LV: Yeah.

KL: To keep cross the cross the river every night.

LV: Yeah.

KL: And when I dream, every night I just say, “I cross the river, I cross the river.”

LV: Oh.

KL: So until we came to United States for five years I still dreaming, dream and dream and dream about where I cross the river. And I told my mom to help me to do something for my spirit.

LV: Yeah.

KL: To come back. So she did it since I never do that again. So it’s very, very, very difficult after we left Laos to Thailand. And after that 1977 and more and more threatening and more abuse and people cross the city into city and mountain to mountain every day every night then they got kills. Thousands and thousands people die.

LV: How did they get killed?

KL: Because the enemy after them they don’t want them to run away because they keep run away and they don’t want them to keep runaway because they, they hate Mr. General Vang Pao. And who keep running walk away it mean who’s enemy. So that’s what they after. Each person each family who disappear at midnight and night nighttime or daytime they don’t like people to stay in the farm every night.

LV: So they just shot them?

KL: Yeah they shooting. They got kill. Thousands and thousands of people family died the whole bunch family. 1977 and 1978. The most people die because they have no right and no legal for them to live. And the freedom for them to live they abused it. They cheating and take the woman the wife or girl or daughter to have sex. They pretend that they have to go to training.

LV: Uh-hum.

KL: And they have class to training for learning for helping to carrying food but they liar they have sex with the woman. With the man into the woman and they separate the family husband and wife. That, those two year that’s why they run away from Laos to Thailand. That’s why they caused too many die and too many lost control. Some and got killed in the mountains and got killed in the city some got killed from the river night come and lost the boat or they don’t have boat and they cut the bamboo. About 10 to 20 bamboo and they used a string tie it by, one by one for each other make a boat and they just carrying children and wife who don’t know how to swim. And they cross the city the river. And one man carrying whole family to cross the river. Sometimes they lost control the whole family die.

LV: Yeah.

KL: All of it, no one left. Sometimes one fell down he can’t catch because he holding the whole family. Or one carrying one with three or four bamboo for each time. Every night and they got kill. Every night they cross that river. Thousands and thousands lost control and lost family and got killed. So made me so feel so sad for why we cross that river but really important. I been dreaming about I cross that river for the five years because my spirit it won’t go away. Keep remember!

LV: Yeah.

KL: And that time that time we, he send the people to Thailand and his wife and me stay out of, um, Pasa beside the river. Some monster go to the Buddhist house and they scare and they shoot a gun. We thought they’d come and shoot us.

LV: Uh-hum.

KL: I carry my daughter we, we cross to the mountain. Each rock for each rock and they have big hole, big hole like one bedroom size.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: And they have hole in upstair and we don’t know we don’t have a flashlight or no nothing, no light or nothing. We just are like we are blind so we walk all way and run away until me and my daughter fell that hole down in ground.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: And we got lucky. If a snake or tiger or something in there we not going to be survive.

LV: So was that like a trap?

KL: Yeah it’s a trap but they have a hole in there out there we fell down, down in the middle.

LV: Yeah.

KL: And we got trapped in there. Well I got a little flashlight a little so you can see it the night just look out, way out.

LV: Yeah.

KL: They have a hole way up in the back.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: So I find a way out.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: So that’s why I got lucky.

LV: So maybe somebody fell before and then they dig dug the hole.

KL: No. That hole is already belong like that.

LV: Oh.

KL: Forever. So I got lucky I get out. I’m the only one that have flashlight.

LV: How did get flashlight?

KL: I already got one. I carry one like my that yellow one.

LV: Oh.

KL: So I carrying about the, the battery is almost gone.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Only a little shiny ray.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: So we stay in the beside the river he whistle, “Where are you? Guys?” I just whistle, “We are here. Look at the flashlight.”

LV: Uh-huh. [Laugh]

KL: I just pull my flashlight and say, “Right there right here.” Then he just dropped the boat.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Straight to us.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: He came in he said, “I don’t need nobody. Uh, I need Kia and her daughter, I need my wife and my son that’s all.”

LV: Yeah.

KL: And we just say, “OK, OK.” So we get inside the boat but already there are people already get through in there first.

LV: Yeah. Uh-huh.

KL: First. When we get through inside the boats are marked full and the one is marked full in there. I said, “Oh God.”

LV: So those other people that got in the boat.

KL: First.

LV: Were strangers.

KL: Um-hmm.

LV: Oh.

KL: So we almost not lucky, but we pass.

LV: Yeah.

KL: That’s why I scared and I my spirit felt in there for five years.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Scared for five years. I remember everyday every night.

LV: So how are you holding Blia your baby?

KL: I carry on my back.

LV: Carried on your back?

KL: Uh-huh.

LV: The whole time?

KL: The whole time when we get to Thailand to Nong Khai.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: When we get to Nong Khai and they stop by the refugee city.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: About five many and they say “No” uh “We can’t let these people go inside the city on the town refugee. You going to have to drive to the city, to the, um, government and what they the government going to do for them.” They told us to the city and the government put us to in jail.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: So the man separate and the woman separate. They put us in jail for seven days. Whoa, that jail is very difficult. Long fence about I think it’s about taller than like the tree.

LV: Um-hmm. Was it?

KL: What?

LV: Was it an actual jail?

KL: Jail! It’s a real jail you can’t get out. But I think it’s three, five doors.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Fence.

LV: The fence had five doors?

KL: Uh-huh. The fence and the door, five. Five steps.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: So one by one is you can’t get out never get out if you in there.

LV: Um-hum.

KL: And they have long field fence but taller like the tree.

LV: Uh-hum.

KL: You never crossing there you can’t c climb in there. You never. So very difficult for us to live there. We sit there in there for seven day.

LV: So what did you do every day?

KL: Stay, sit down, cry, pray for God, “What did we do? Why we here?”

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Why we got jail? What is the reason we are here? Pray everyday.

LV: What did you pray?

KL: Uh.

LV: ‘Cause you’re still young right?

KL: Yeah, yeah, yeah babies we need help so we can’t we can’t we don’t know what to do so we just pray and pray and pray and pray, and asking God, “Why? Why we are here? Why we got jail and people come in and don’t go to jail? Why?” So that’s where we are. And a seven-day they come and get us. Let us all get out from the jail and they put us to the city outside no house. We got lucky for no raining. If raining what are we going to do?

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: We don’t have house we don’t have they don’t have a porch or storage or something else. Just they just they just put us in this in the ground. They say, “OK sleep right here.” So we say, “Where’s the house?” They say, “No house you just sleeping.”

LV: Is this the refuge camp?

KL: Um-hmm.

LV: OK.

KL: So we don’t have no house to live. We sleep on the floor on the ground. The grass for 27 days. And I stay in there about 10 day. 16 day. My ma and my da-, my husband come and pay the government 600, 600 bucks and they let me go out. So we go to the, uh, refuge city. So the, the other family they don’t have no money so they stay until, until their what they call? Um, until your, your problem gone.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: So they won’t come in. So that’s many people sad and many people angry because I still remember no water and the bathroom is so stinking so smell, so dirty. It’s many, many, many, many mosquito. Oh, my God. I ever see all my entire life that I got abuse. All my entire life from 1974 until 1976 think it’s May and cross that river to Thailand and I came to the refugee city, town then I stay about three months in there and my husband have a paper work with the American people and he got interview and he took me and my daughter and we came to the United States. We got not family and nobody coming. ( ) My husband my daughter and me only. So we got very, very, very miss. Miss, miss, miss our family, very homesick. For our country and lots of people not coming. So later, two years ago about three two years ago, later. 1977 we came September 20-. September 9th. Uh, we September first we leave we left in Thailand to Bangkok and we stay about two days in there only and we left Bangkok to United States. When we get to United States, Montana, September 9th.

LV: Did you did you do anything in Bangkok?

KL: Uh no.

LV: You just stopped and?

KL: Just stopped and checked um flat tires.

LV: Yeah.

KL: Somethings like that that’s it. So we just got here in, in United States September 20-. September 9th. In Montana, and we stay in there for seven year. And we moved Montana to California 1983, to July, to California.

LV: You said that you had like dreams of crossing the Mekong River.

KL: Um hmm.

LV: Even five years after that. So it was it was a powerful river.

KL: Yeah, scary river.

LV: Really, really strong.

KL: Very strong never lousy or not you can’t not see but it’s very faster.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: It’s very deep.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: And if you drop in there you never get out.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So very strong. They cross the boat they drop the boat and the rivers go like this, straight.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Then you, you have to go drop take the boat all the way about two mile from the way in the, the front and the boat going go not straight the boat going to go triangle like this to the other city. So that’s it can’t make it.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So that’s why we get lost.

LV: Wow.

KL: I’m been dreaming about boats because I scared and I really scared because I feel that if the water go through the boat what are we going to do? We got 10 people in there.

LV: Did you know how to swim?

KL: No I don’t. I don’t know how to swim. Plus I carry my baby too.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So when we get drown what I’m going to do?

LV: Yeah.

KL: I’m not going to be survive, I may have to die. But I got lucky. I prayed because my dad died about 25 years ago, or 10, I think, think, I think it’s about five years ago later than. And I prayed for my father the whole time.

LV: Um-hum.

KL: When we cross Nasue to Chichua.

LV: Um-hum.

KL: We cross Chichua river and city to Mangkang and we move Mangkang to Pasau. I prayed every time we cross each other uh city to city. I prayed.

LV: So you prayed to your father?

KL: To help.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: I pray and I pray and say, “You’re the one and only one to be go to in heaven please help me and don’t be don’t let me drown or don’t let me got trouble don’t get lost.”

LV: So do you think praying to your father was like it helped you the most?

KL: Yeah. I got lucky. He helped me every time.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: I got lucky he helped me every pray, every time I prayed. So if I don’t pray I’m going to die for that river.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Because that’s only one finger to do it to the boat in the river the water only one inch and I sit down in the middle both people sit down on the top. This much side. And his wife and me sit down in the middle.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: On the boat. And that middle is curved like this.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So I sit down here and she sit down here.

LV: Yeah.

KL: She sit down in front and I sit down back and we both hold it.

LV: Yeah.

KL: I say, “Hey the water going to go inside. Please.”

LV: Yeah.

KL: And she say, “OK, OK hold it.” We both put hand in there and I pray every minute I say, “Please father, please help me. Please help us. When I pass that river I will get money to you and food for you. Please.” And I pray until we pass.

LV: So if the river was flowing this way, right?

KL: Um-hmm.

LV: So your boat could-

KL: Could not cross straight.

LV: -go over the river like a T right?

KL: No.

LV: It was kind of like sailing backward.

KL: Sailing back down, down, down, down about two miles.

LV: About two miles. So when so when you landed to the other side you had no idea where you were?

KL: No. Just we just imagine that what where we are we don’t care.

LV: Right.

KL: Just.

LV: Just you got pass you past that.

KL: Hiding. Just only make sure we pass.

LV: Yeah.

KL: And we just say, “OK be quiet. Hiding.”

LV: Yeah. Yeah.

KL: Because if we scare Thai people.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: They’re going to kill us too.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Yeah but they don’t no body see us and then they kill us too. They kill for money.

LV: Yeah.

KL: We ain’t got the money and they kill us. If they don’t get the money they kill us too.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: They really bad people too. They not good people.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: So that’s why we all feel so guilty. We got abuse.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Sing-sing and Laos. But if you got to the, we got to the city the border is the people carrying the rule. And the government is the one carrying the rule. And we got the, to the city and the, the all the people cannot do nothing. But if you can go out, we go out or we there.

LV: Yeah.

KL: To the city then they have they abuse us.

LV: Right because there’s nobody.

KL: Nobody see.

LV: To see.

KL: So they, they try to kill us for money.

LV: Yeah.

KL: They don’t have money. Because they, they work in a farm they plant, um, fruit.

LV: Um-hum.

KL: Um juice or apple juice, or apple, or orange or, all those kinds and they sell but they didn’t get that much so they keep cheating people. So they know that if who, who running who walk away like this who, who have money.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: But they just keep killing a whole bunch of people a lot of money. Oh make me scare for until now that’s why I don’t want to back to visit my family or to remember in Thailand.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: I don’t want to go back in there because I’m scared and I hate it, I don’t, I don’t want to seed it.

LV: Yeah.

KL: But and reason that our country we don’t have no car, we don’t have no road. And we have to walk.

LV: Yeah.

KL: But we have to walk about three, four, five days-

LV: Yeah.

KL: -city to city. So they call. Sometimes we have house can of food and we go sometimes we don’t we just walking three to four day. Uh, half day or one day all time like this so I don’t like it. I don’t like to do that so that’s why I don’t back to see them.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: But I try maybe 2002 or 2003 I might go back to see them.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Because a long time I came to United States about 27, 28 years ago. Long time. So. Well. A long story we got abused, we got, you know, people treat us for no reason.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: And we got people killed. My father’s sister she lost, uh, I think it’s 1977, in 1978. And she got she got whole family and she lost her husband and her six children.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: One time. I feel so sad for her and for her whole family.

LV: Did they die in the Viet-?

KL: They all gone, disappear for no reason.

LV: Oh.

KL: Nobody see. They looking for, for three months, nothing show up, but the truth is she know that because he made the boat with the bamboo.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: And he’s the he’s the one he’s the one hold the string and carrying his wife and six children and the wife have baby pregnancy baby too.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: And when, um, when he told his wife that, um, “OK you get out from the to the turn the side in the water.” And they, she say, “Where’s my kids?” She say, he told him he told her that, “Forget about me and my kids I’m going to die with them because they are disappear on my back.” And she look out and they all gone and he just he just, “Hey, hey, hey.” So when he, she look out and they both wave to the river. And just they just “Abou, abou, abou, abou! Help help!” That’s it.

LV: So they drown?

KL: Drown all of it. Six children, plus the father. So she’s only one left with pregnancy baby.

LV: You know since so many Hmong people died in the Mekong River maybe you guys should like think about making it like some sacred place or something to call to you know to go bless their spirits all the people that died there.

KL: Well. Because we don’t know some if they know how to swim they might go back to Laos country.

LV: Yeah.

KL: If they sneak sneaking around mountain to mountain and go back to the family. Nobody knows. There some carrying about three or four people on the back with the whole and they both drown.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So the father, her husband told her that, “If I live my six kid die. I not should be live.”

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: “And you should go, go ahead. You pass. I’m going to grab my children back. If I don’t find them, I’m going to die with them too.” And her husband is taller, handsome, he’s a nice man. Then all she see and she see the way she see back and he told her that, “My kids both drown.” And because the boat is upside down.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: When, when he grab her up. And the kids already drown.

LV: Oh.

KL: And he told her, “Get out on the side. Make sure you’re safe. And I’m going to grab my kids back if I don’t and I can’t hold them or because the wave was too strong.”

LV: Yeah.

KL: “If I don’t if I can’t hold them or they already drown I can’t find them then we both going to drown. I’m not going to be here no more.” He told her that and then a few minute they all boat disappear.

LV: Yeah.

KL: They can’t find no more, nowhere. They stay in there about three days. And they just sneaking by side-to-side.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: To look out. When they pass that for three mile from there the river separate.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: For three side. And three way and it really not deep but very strong.

LV: Uh-hmm.

KL: And not very deep you can see them bounce. The rock.

LV: Yeah.

KL: In there but you can’t get it because too strong.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So there’s nothing stopping, they all pass. So she’s the only one left.

LV: Yeah.

KL: With pregnancy baby boy.

LV: Yeah.

KL: And she came to Thailand one about three four months ago. The baby born and she, her family say she shouldn’t go marry other men because he’s disappear and they already have, um, the spirit come back and already been gone for no more. He said, she said, “OK.” Then she start be change her clothes start acting beautiful and then they say, “No, no, no. You can’t do that.” And she’s just they just put they just told them the younger boy to marry her. And Toto he, he married her he’s younger, like, I think he’s like a child’s age.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: And then but she’s already seven kids.

LV: Uh-hmm.

KL: And he marry her and they been married for 25 years right now and they been coming to United States in, they’re in Minnesota. She got 16 kids.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Total.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: The uh the husband drown and the brother husband uh he she marry. That have eight children. And I think it’s eight children and he she got a the drown man have seven kids plus she got 16 good kids. I went to see her about ’99, July I saw her. Oh so scared. She’s still not that old but, well, her husband is still young.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: But she got eight, 16 kids, children. So we been, not seen each other for 25 years ago, about 30 years. I think it’s 30 years ago.

LV: Yeah.

KL: We never see each other. So I feel so sorry where we got abuse. That story is a long story. I feel so bad 1977, 1978 to ’90, uh, ‘80 to ’89, ’80. Oh, got, a lot of people got killed. A lot people got killed and died on the mountain for no reason no food. Some died for food some died for sick, sick. And some got kill a lot of people got kill. So I don’t know why we got lucky.

LV: Yeah.

KL: We pass. But I remember that that time we cross Alon-chain to Nasue. Nasue to (Chichua)

LV: Uh huh.

KL: And cross Chichua toWain-Kain because that middle between Chichua to Nasue made me scared I was scared for 10 years. That I remember. I been dreaming my dream about this. We pass the, uh, airport.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Nasue to Laos, Laos City beside the airport. And the people Laos and the people on the mountain they hiding, um, what they call “dao-fa.” The people hiding on the mountain they don’t want to cross to Thailand they don’t to leave the country they don’t want to let the country for the enemy and the, uh, Vietnamese people.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: They hiding in there they don’t want anybody walk away to Thailand. They come and stop the sign the road. They got kill for five car. The, the I think it’s five cars front of our car. They got they both got killed they all die.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: When we can and they call, “Help! Help!” I look out I told my friend that, “Look outside the road.”

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: She say, “Where?” I say, “Look at the outside the road.” We both look, look. They got kill and they cut a bamboo.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: No a Banana plant.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: The leaf.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: And they cut the tree.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Leave tree and cover the person in there.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: I saw the feet. I say, “Oh my god. A people die in there.” Three.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: And they told us to get out inside the car [cough] and we walk.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: We walk about four miles.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: They told us, “Go ahead to walk. We got to help these people and we go after you guys.”

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: We, “OK.” All the old people ride the car we walk for five four miles.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: In the car get help already come ( ). He drive the car up the aisles. He came and said, “OK we are safe. Don’t talk.”

LV: So this is still in Laos.

KL: Um-hmm in Laos before I came to Vang-Ken. Same day. Oh made me so scared I scared for 10 years. I remember and dream every night and when I stay about two months in Flong-Win-Chain.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: We cross that river Mekong too.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Made me scared two times. And the third time when they put us in jail.

LV: Uh huh.

KL: And the fence is long fence you ever see.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Maybe taller than the tree. The old tree.

LV: Yeah.

KL: I don’t know why they do it. And five step door.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: You can’t get out in it no more.

LV: Uh huh.

KL: So I’m scared for three times and my spirit is not, not going to live with me anymore until I came to the United States I keep dreaming again, dreaming again, dreaming again. I told my mom I say, “Ma I don’t know what to do for me. I’m been keep dreaming about the way I got trouble.”

LV: Yeah.

KL: And she say, “Maybe you lost the spirit.” I say “Yes I am I still remember.” And she say, “OK I will do something for you.” And she do something for me but I’m not remembering very much but I still keep my mind and remember that where we came from, what happened. How far we are how scare we are.

LV: Yeah.

KL: How danger we are. So that’s where we are. Made me scared.

LV: Yeah.

KL: So I don’t, that’s why I really don’t want to go back to see my family and bad because I hate to go back to see, but right now they should be a freedom.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Today, I’ve been to the Asian store.

LV: Yeah.

KL: They told me the people in the United States not the woman, the men .

LV: Yeah.

KL: They travel back to Laos. And all the men keep cheating the, the uh all the lady, the girl.

LV: Their cheating on their wives?

KL: No, they cheating on girl.

LV: They’re cheating the girl?

KL: Um-hmm. And they take the girl to the hotel to have sex and marry and get divorce or can’t get to United States and lately their daughter got abuse or no husband and-

LV: You’re talking about the Hmong men?

KL: Um-hmm. And they got killed because one person got killed because a man got killed because they both go treat their family and their daughter and their parent use their daughter like at the wife. So they’re not really happy. They’ve been go to much a lot a lot. Same person and now they got kill one got kill and two going to got kill pretty soon so one I know who is it. One is my, my boyfriend then he’s scared not to go back in Laos no more. He can’t go no more. And the other one he cannot go no more either because he’s going to go get killed. And one cannot come back in here I don’t know, we don’t know where he walk away or where. And one already got killed they sent him back to they sent the body back to United States to have funeral in United States because he’s a citizen but the reason that our people is not good people. I don’t know, I believe God and I don’t like somebody going to treat woman and man or woman or family like this.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: So that’s why I told my ex-husband couple days ago or last night that he told me that he going to go to Thailand in Laos I say, “I don’t think the government going to sign the passport and visa for you guy go anymore.” Because I don’t know about, I don’t know, I don’t know about those story.

LV: Yeah.

KL: But I don’t know why I told him like this.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Then I told him that and today I went to the Asian store.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: I heard them talk about that so I say, “Maybe God told me to do it.”

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: Maybe God told me to say that.

LV: Uh-huh.

KL: So I told him, “You not going to go. And government is not going to sign paper for you. They not going to let you guy go. Because you are not good person you are cheating. Cheating woman. So you’re not going to get it you’re not going to go. Maybe I, I travel through time you, you not going to get it because we are woman and we are free.”

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: “We don’t do it we don’t cheat nobody. And man’s cheating man, cheating, cheating cheating. You are guy cheating man you can’t go no where.” He say, “Yeah so I’m going.” I say, “Whatever. You have no money or you have money but they not going to sign the paper for you. Trust me, you’re not going to get it.” And he said, “Yes I’m going.” I said, “No you’re not. I believe it I guaranteed it you’re not going to get it.” I don’t know why I told him. I don’t know why I told him like this but today I heard the story and say, “Gosh, real?” She told me “Yeah they got kill. One is already kill and the other one is your boyfriend. And then the other one he walk away we don’t know where he at. He might go to Thailand cross the river to Thailand and he might come home to United States but we don’t where he’s at over there right now.” I say, “Why?” She say, “Because they got to go in there and they keep cheating the family cheating the girl. A lot of girl got kill some got, uh, drink, they eating cocaine. They kill themselves they hang out they sell because they, they been, talk about maybe American men or Mong men have more power and more, know more than Laos people have a sex they love to have sex or they love each other or they meet each other. So all the girls got killed. They kill themselves. That’s why they kill the men.” I say, “Oh good.” I thought that they should not to do that. She told me, “Your, your boyfriend almost got killed.” So he know that he can’t stay in there he cross the river to Thailand. And that guy got killed. I said, “Good. That’s no good idea.” So I don’t know I told her I say, “I don’t know why I told my ex-husband like this too. Maybe God told me to do right?” She say, “Yeah God told you to say that.” Oh me. I feel so bad and when I came home and I thinking about that is no good, no good reason for us to do that. For men go back to our country to treat people because so many people got killed and died about, about 1976, ’75, ’78, and ’77, ’80, ’89 still got killed. Right now still got killed. Because the Vietnamese people don’t give them no freedom. They get drunk, medicine, kill, shock, medicine shock made them sick every day until they die. And if somebody got guilty or they look guilty then they put in jail until he die or she die. And they if they got, got guilty they just keep a little medicine and shock. And they got sick and sick and sick until they die. They never had no freedom. So I feel so guilty our, our country that we don’t we’re not going to get any freedom. Depend our people need to know love each other family each other, husband, wife each other. We need to understand each other, killing each other.

LV: So you said that you said that crossing the Mekong River that time was one of like your scariest times.

KL: I yeah so scary.

LV: But was there, was there like any good thing that came out of the experience that you remember?

KL: Well around me is my spirit so its still keep cross that river it means lots.

LV: Yeah.

KL: It keep, it keep, you know, like the army shooting?

LV: Yeah.

KL: And day and night.

LV: Yeah.

KL: And he saw he saw a lot of people got kill in front, your front right?

LV: Um-hmm.

LV: And then he’s so scared his spirit fell in there.

KL: Um-hmm.

LV: And stay with the people down in there.

KL: Um-hmm.

KL: Every night he’s sleeping he got he’d seen it.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: When he’s sleeping he’d seen it. He keep saying, “Help, help.” That’s what his spirit feeling he found it in there. And the people die got his spirit.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: Or if I cross the river and I so scare and the river got my spirit too.

LV: Um-hmm.

KV: And if I have to go do something.

LV: Um-hmm.

KL: And make money or give the money to the river because the river have, have a person a person or monster in there too that grab my spirit and hold in there and when I keep, dreamed about I cross every day every night when I sleep or when I and I’ll sleep I thinking. I’ll say, “It’s like this it’s like this.” So I’m scare. So when I see the shooting, uh, beside the airport then I my, my spirit, they grabbed my spirit too. I scared and they grab it. And everyday and every night I still remember because my spirit don’t come back to, come back to my body. I kidding I keep saw every night, every day. So I keep scared and my spirit not come into back to my body. Then I’d still seen it I still remember. If my spirit come back to my body then I don’t see anymore I don’t I not scared because if she’s not there then I not scare. If she’s there then I scare. That’s, that’s meaning of this. So that’s why you have to get the money for that river that I want my spirit back or I have to get, get the money for that that dead people or that that road say, “Please give me, me my spirit back to me I don’t want to die.” So they just led the, they got the money and they let my spirit back. So I not I don’t remember I remember but I don’t I not scare. That’s one reason I’ll do it.

LV: OK. OK then. Thank you though.

KL: Um-hmm. So. I’m be appreciate any student to remember how much we cross river Laos to Thailand and we came Laos Thailand to United States. That’s important because we cross river to Thailand we can’t speak with Thailand people, language. The most important they got they try to steal money and kill us and because coming to United States we can’t speak English and the most important in Sing-sing we cross the river. So any young girl and young boy have to take a step in, to, you know, be honor to the parent that how much the parent got abused. And lost the power, lost the control and losing money and losing everything on the future for the last 25 years ago and any kids or young, young man and young woman have to be honor to the parent that believe that how much the parent take care of you and support you and responsible for you. So my name’s Kia Lee. I really happy to help you guys any story you need so please ask me. Thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW

Approx. 72:36 minutes